So I was driving home from work last week, and I heard this on the radio.
Daniel Alfredsson should not make it to the hall of fame.
“Daniel Alfredsson is a shoo-in for the hall of fame.”
After the tow-truck pulled my car out of the ditch, I took some time to ponder this statement.
And the more I thought, the more I realized I was right.
Daniel Alfredsson does not belong in the hall of fame.
At least, not with the way his career is now.
Don’t get me wrong, Alfie is a good player, and is a surefire bet to be the first Senator of the modern era to get his number retired by the team. Unless the Sens decide to hang Dany Heatley’s number first (with Heatley still in the jersey).
But hall of fame? I don’t think so.
Here is the following 10 reasons why Daniel Alfredsson doesn’t deserve to make the Hall of Fame.*
No Stanley Cup
There are a lot of people who believe that if you don’t have a Stanley Cup ring, you don’t belong in the hall of fame. They’ll even argue that Marcel Dionne, who is one of only six players to score 700 goals and fis ifth in points all time, doesn’t belong in the Hall.
This is the closest Alfredsson has gotten to the Stanley Cup.
Now, I’m not necessarily one of those people, but I think it helps. A lot. Scott Stevens wouldn’t be in the hall without his three Stanley Cups. Clark Gillies wouldn’t be there if he wasn’t a part of the Islanders dynasty at the beginning of the 1980s.
If someone like #11 makes it, it would open up the hall to the rest of the “good, but not great” players, such as Theoren Fleury, Adam Oates and Tim Kerr.
Basically, a hockey player’s career can be summed up in one of five categories:
A cup of coffee: Guys who played a couple of games or a season or two (Chad Penney, Mike Fountain)
A Sunday brunch: Played a few years, but nothing special (Anson Carter, Janne Laukkanen)
Dinner at a friend’s house: A good serviceable career in the league (Mike Keane, Yanic Perreault)
A five-course meal: Nice to see, but no guarantees it’s the best you’ve ever had (Adam Oates, Doug Gilmour)
Thanksgiving dinner with all the trimmings: The superstars of the league, lets you know they are something special, and sure-fire Hall of Famers (Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky)
Alfredsson falls somewhere between number three and four. He’s had a nice career, but he doesn’t belong in that upper echelon.
Leadership
Every one says Daniel Alfredsson is a great leader. But is he really?
Do you ever remember Daniel Alfredsson coming through in the clutch? Me neither. In fact, if you were to look at the Sens biggest games of the past 10 years, this is how Alfie fared:
Daniel Alfredsson has been known to disappear in big games.
2007 Stanley Cup finals: Four goals, one assist (two of those goals came in the last game, a 6-2 drubbing).
2004 playoffs, first round, Game 7 against the Leafs: No points, no shots, a minus one
2003 playoffs, third round, Game 7 against the Devils: No points.
2001 playoffs, first round, four-game sweep by the Leafs: One goal, no assists
1999 playoffs, four-game first-round sweep by the Leafs: One goal, two assists
So in the last 10 years, of the team’s 14 most important games, Alfie has six goals and three assists. Take away the 2007 finals, and he has two goals and two assists in 10 of the team’s most important games.
That’s not leadership.
Leaders do more than lead by example. Their teammates stick up for them. Think Wayne Gretzky. If you touched him, either Dave Semenko or Marty McSorley would come over to talk about you not eating solid foods for a month.
Does Alfie command that type of respect from his colleagues? Have a look at the video.
Despite the title of the Youtube clip, mayhem did not ensue after Mark Bell left Alfie lying in a puddle of his own drool. What happened is that the play continued on for another 10 seconds before anything happened.
And even then, the whistle was blown because Alfie was injured, not because of fights breaking out while the team tried to fight for the honour of their captain.
If you watch the footage of what happened afterwards, nothing happened. No gloves were dropped, no punches thrown. I’m sure Wade Redden did a good job telling Bell that he was a bad person for throwing that hit.
I can tell you this though. If someone had tried to lay out Steve Yzerman in that fashion, they’d still be cleaning up the guy’s blood.
Not a great playoffs in career
I just touched upon this one, but it does deserve a category all on its own.
He doesn’t come through when the team needs him.
He’s like the reverse Claude Lemieux: great in the regular season, but disappears come playoff time.
He never won a major individual award.
Besides the Calder trophy (as best rookie), Alfredsson has never won a major individual award.
Alfie has won only one major individual award: the Calder in his rookie season.
He’s only been nominated for an award twice: both for the Lady Byng for most gentlemanly player.
Again, when you look at other hall of famers, most of them have won awards. Look at the four players that made it this year.
Brett Hull: Lady Byng, the Hart and the Lester B. Pearson.
Brian Leetch: Norris trophy (twice), Conn Smythe and the Calder.
Steve Yzerman: Lester B. Pearson, Conn Smythe, Selke, Masterton, Lester Patrick
Only Luc Robitaille won as many trophies (the Calder) as Alfie, but he can be forgiven, since he’s the highest-scoring left winger of all time.
And Alfredsson has the credentials to match that?
He’s been named to the second all-star once, and that’s pretty much it.
Never won a scoring title
Have you ever actually looked at Alfredsson’s stats? Can you guess how many times he put up more than 90 points?
Just once.
That’s it.
In the 2005-06 season, he had 103 points. His next highest point total is 89.
Now, can you guess how many times he scored more than 50 goals?
None. His highest total is 43.
These are the benchmarks that players are judged by. It’s been 50 goals ever since Maurice Richard did it in 1943-44.
In baseball, there are certain goals that players can hit the will generally make them a shoo-in for the hall of fame (such as hitting 500 career home runs). Hockey doesn’t really have anything like that, but scoring 50 goals in a season helps a lot (right Cam Neely?).
Alfredsson never hit it, unlike many other hall of famers.
Sportsmanship
Does Daniel Alfredsson have sportsmanship?
I would argue no.
Normally, it’s hard to argue sportsmanship in hockey. The whole point of the game is to run into your opponents to keep them from scoring.
But there are instances when you see sportsmanship come through. A guy gets accidently injured when his skate catches a rut, you see the opposing player call for the whistle right away to get the guy help.
Or you hold up on your hit if they see the guy turn his back.
Or you don’t take a shot on goal once you hear the whistle.
But this is not sportsmanship.
You do not intentionally shoot the puck at your opponent near the end of a game.
Not the top at his position for years
When you look at other hall of famers, they were the cream of the crop. Look at the top 10 centres of the 1980s. In no particular order, they were Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Bernie Nicholls, Denis Savard, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier and Marcel Dionne. Of that list, Nicholls won’t make the hall of fame, and the rest are already in.
What’s more, is that after the top 10, there’s a huge drop in talent. Barry Pederson, Tim Kerr, Bob Carpenter, Kent Nilsson, Mike Bullard, Bernie Federko, Dennis Maruk and Bobby Smith would probably be the next top eight centres from that decade.
Only one of them are in the hall of fame (Federko), and none of the others will have a shot to make it.
So pretty much, if you’re not in the top 10, your odds of making it to the hall of fame go down drastically.
So when you look at Alfredsson of the past decade, which has been his best years, he wouldn’t be in the top 10 when it comes to right wingers. I’d put him below Teemu Selanne, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, Bill Guerin, Marian Hossa, Brett Hull, Jaromir Jagr, Jarome Iginla, Milan Hejduk and Rick Nash.
How many of those are sure-fire Hall-of-Famers? Hull’s already there, but there may only be three from that list that will join him (Selanne, Jagr and Iginla). The rest are on the cusp.
You could also argue that since Alfredsson came into the league (the 1995-96 season), he’d also be ranked below Theo Fleury, Peter Bondra, Mark Recchi, Tony Amonte and Paul Kariya.
So if he’s not even one of the top 10 right wingers during his career, his odds go down drastically.
Not the best player on the team
When you played against other hall of famers, you knew it. Coaches would design game plans to stop them. The top checking line would play against the likes of Mike Bossy, Guy Lafleur and Lemieux.
Alfie always took a back seat to Spezza and Heatley when it came to offence.
Alfie never had to deal with that for much of his career.
In the 90s, Alexei Yashin was seen as the more offensive player, and teams would focus on stopping him.
Then, in the 2000s, teams worked on stopping Jason Spezza and Heatley.
While Alfie had a good career, he was never seen as the guy that other teams needed to stop.
The guarantee
Hockey players are always making guarantees. The two most famous ones happen to be Mark Messier and Daniel Alfredsson.
Messier, in 1994, didn’t like the fact his New York Rangers were down three games to two to the New Jersey Devils. So he guaranteed a Rangers win to send the series back to New York for game seven.
So what did Messier do? He went out and scored a hat trick.
Fast forward ten years later. Before the 2004 playoffs had even begun, Alfie decided to tell the Ottawa Sun “Go ahead and write it, I guarantee we’ll win the Cup. I strongly believe this team will do it. No question about it.”
So what happened? They went down 3-2 in the first round of the playoffs to the hated Toronto Maple Leafs.
So then Alfie said this: “We’re going to go home, win and force Game 7. Then we’ll come back in here and win the series.”
Alfredsson's guarantees don't really mean much.
They won game six, but lost the series.
And how did Alfie respond to his own guarantee? By scoring one goal and two assists in seven games.
If you’re going to guarantee something, shouldn’t you actually show up and do something about it?
Maybe he should guarantee he’s going to make the Hockey Hall of Fame. That’s a surefire way he won’t make it.
No WOW factor
Have you ever heard someone say “Hey, Daniel Alfredsson is playing tonight. Let’s go to the game.”
A Hall of Famer is someone who, for the lack of a better term, puts butts in the seats. Gretzky did that. So did Lemieux. And Patrick Roy.
Their play transcended the sport.
People would go to the game just to see them in action. Pavel Bure was great at this. Even if he didn’t score, his moves on the ice would make fans of him and his opponents gasp in anticipation.
But Alfie doesn’t fall into this category. No one goes to see him in action. He’s more of the side attraction of the real reason the fans are there (to see the Sens win).
Conclusion
While not meeting any of these criteria doesn’t mean a player won’t make the hall of fame, it’s difficult to do so when he doesn’t meet any of them.
Alfredsson is one of those players, and because of it, he doesn’t deserve to be in the hockey hall of fame.
*Of course, this all changes if Alfie can put up some monster seasons and win a couple of cups the next few seasons, but I don’t see that happening.
The Ryan Coke Experience 
I’m glad you’ve found something to do now that it’s too depressing to watch the habs play:) I think you’ve spent more time writing this article than actually watching Alfredsson play which is probably why your arguments sound like their just based on post game recaps.
Now, by no means do I think Alfredsson is a sure thing for the hall of fame but a lot of what you have said doesn’t hold water. The primary example is saying that Alfie isn’t the best player on the Sens. Alfie is far and away the best player on the Sens, with or without Dany Heatley. An untrained eye may look at the stats and see Dany’s 50 goals and think he must be the best player on the team. But if you look a little deeper at how the Sens do without Alfie in the lineup you will quickly see that there is no more valuable player than him as far as winning is concerned. And to quote Herm Edwards “You play to win the game!”.
Now, Alfie did struggle in the playoffs earlier in his career but that all changed in 2007. In the year you said he disappeared in the big games he led the NHL in playoff scoring with 14 goals in 20 games. And one of those goals you casually dismissed in the last game, he skated the length of the ice with an Anaheim Duck on his back before roofing the puck behind Giguere and his oversized pads. It was the biggest game in the modern sens era and he scored twice.
Of course if you want to focus on pre-2007 that’s your choice. There are several other similar type people who said Gretzky didn’t have what it takes when he had zero goals against the islanders in his first finals appearance.
One of the most impressive things about Alfie is his productivity at age 36. Do you know how many points Gretzky had when he started a season at age 36? 90. Do you how many points Alfie is on pace for? 89. That’s pretty good company and an incompareable level of consistency.
Never won a scoring title? – I could list all of the HOF members without one but that’s too easy, and obvious.
Never won a major award? – You proved this argument wrong yourself. Hawerchuk only won this non-major award too and he is in the hall. Also, he has never won a cup.
No WOW? – Again, you are showing that you don’t watch Sens games.
Again, I don’t know if he’ll make it but he will definitely get serious consideration.
Have a good day!
I agree completely w/ Graham.
100% correct Graham.
A few counter arguments:
“In the year you said he disappeared in the big games he led the NHL in playoff scoring with 14 goals in 20 games. ”
Scoring goals on an overmatched hockey team that you’re sweeping (or winning in five), doesn’t really constitute as a big game.
But the big thing I want to counter is Hawerchuk. You point out that there’s a couple of things on this that Hawerchuk doesn’t have. But he does have many of them, including a 50-goal campaign (and he scored more than 43 – Alfie’s highest total – five times). He’s also have seven 100-point seasons. He also finished with more than 500 goals.
Hawerchuk was also solid in the playoffs, finishing at more than a point-per-game pace (and a 1.18 points per game in the regular season).
He was one of the top players at his position for a decade, and he played with class. He also had that Wow factor, and was the best player on the team.
The way I see it, Hawerchuk meets six of the criteria I mentioned above (seven, if you want to count the fact he never made stupid guarantees). Alfie still has zero.
Comparing any of today’s players points to those of hockey players who played in the 80s is foolish. Everyone knows the game is different now. In Dales’ best year there were like 15 100pts guys. Last year there were 4. The Skaters, Goalies and Coaches are much more committed to keeping the puck out today. Apples and Oranges.
However, when you compare Alffy to players from his generation he matches up exceedingly well. In fact, Alffy has the 3rd most points of any NHLer over the past 10years, throw in playoffs points and he has the 2nd best production behind Joe Thornton.
Is he a lock for the HOF. Not at all. Is he worthy for consideration. Damn straight he is.
But Hawerchuk played in the gun slinging 80’s where everyone and their dog had a 50 goal seasons. I actually think MacDonalds started giving them out with Happy Meals. Alfie played much of his career in the clutch & grab 90’s and early 2000’s. 50 goals in that era were much more difficult to come by.
I agree with Graham…well stated.
“But Hawerchuk played in the gun slinging 80’s where everyone and their dog had a 50 goal seasons. ”
Really?
50-goal scorers in the 80s:
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Jari Kurri
Bernie Nicholls
Mike Bossy
Lanny McDonald
Steve Yzerman
Denis Maruk
Marcel Dionne
Tim Kerr
Michel Goulet
Charlie Simmer
Blane Stoughton
Danny Gare
Craig Simpson
Rick Kehoe
Dino Ciccarelli
John Ogrodnick
Jimmy Carson
Wayne Babych
Rick Vaive
Al Secord
Glenn Anderson
Bob Carpenter
Jacques Richard
Rick Middleton
Mike Bullard
Joe Nieuwendyk
Guy Lafleur
Pierre Larouche
Reggie Leach
Bryan Trottier
Mike Gartner
Hakan Loob
Stephane Richer
I count around 35 in 1980s.
1990s
Hull
Selanne
Mogilny
Lemieux
Robitaille
Yzerman
Jagr
Bure
Pierre Turgeon
Fedorov
Bellows
Neely
Kevin Stevens
LaFontaine
Andreychuk
Roenick
Roberts
Recchi
Shanahan
Sheppard
Graves
Bondra
Leeman
Richer
Fleury
Shanahan
Sakic
Modano
Kariya
Count around 28 there…whoo! Quiet the dropoff, 7 less 50 goal scorers in the 90s, damn that dead puck, clutch and grab, interference and better goaltending!
Comparing eras requires a little more then a head count. In the 80’s there was a lot more scoring and less teams. I believe much of the 80’s the league was 21 teams. In the 90’s there was massive amounts of expansion, more players, more teams, more first line time for players. You’d figure with more top line minutes to go around there would be more scoring, but instead there was a 20% drop with probably 30% more players in the league.
In the 2000’s there were 15 fifty goal seasons. 50 goal seasons is now the platinum standard for a sniper, 40 goal seasons are probably what you’d class 50 goal seasons as in the 80s and 90s.
First of all, a 20% drop off in 50 goal scorers is not a big difference to you? I’m glad you’re not working for the NHL.
And second of all, for some reason you didn’t think repeat seasons should factor into determining the offensive state of the game. With those mutiple seasons accounted for, the stats are undeniable.
80’s – 75 fifty goal seasons
90’s – 48 fifty goal seasons
To the guy who wrote this,
how is the weather in Toronto?
According to the Weather Network, it’s plus one and overcast.
(By the way, I don’t live in Toronto, and I’m also not a Leafs fan).
Everyone assumes you’re a Leaf fan because apparantly we’re the only “delusional” ones that don’t see Alfie as a bonafide superstar that Sens fans think he is.
Alfie is a toss up for the Hall of Fame, about as likely to get in as old Mats. Goal scoring and leadership aren’t the same by any measure.
oh, that Bell hit was an elbow no matter what Bob Cole sees through his blue-tinted glasses. Bob Cole needs to stop talking because I’m getting tired of ignoring him.
I like that you trash Redden when Bell does something ‘tough’ like that with a cage on. Do you honestly think Heatley would fight Tucker? Second round: Neil vs. Blake
Go leafs go
Why u hatin on alfredsson. He’s been a hero in Ottawa since ’94. Thats 16 years with the senators and everybody loves him. Just because you don’t like the senators doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give the man some respect.
I’m not ragging on Alfie. I said at the beginning of this post: “Alfie is a good player, and is a surefire bet to be the first Senator of the modern era to get his number retired by the team.”
I just don’t think he warrants a hall of fame induction. The rest of the post explained why.
I think Alfie warrants consideration on other metrics as well. You’d have to consider how he figures in with his generation of countrymen as well. I think Lidstrom, Sundin, Forsberg and Alfie all deserve consideration for the Hall. He will probably get bonus points for being a lifetime Senator, a sad sap expansion team when he arrived to perennial playoff team and Cup contender. Playing your whole career somewhere definitely holds weight in the minds of people. I hate thinking of HoF guys that played for 6 or 7 teams. Just shows maybe they were either dispensable, or spent their career chasing money.
The Cup is a sore point with Sens fans, but I think deep down we all know they probably would have won in 06 with a healthy Hasek in net, Redden and Chara in their primes and healthy Havlat still in the fold. Just looking at that team you can’t help but wonder.
Just because he’s a hero in Ottawa doesn’t justify him going in the HoF
Only Sens fans would are biased enough to agrue that Alfredsson belongs in the Hall.
He has done nothing of significance ever.
And getting to the Stanely Cup Final ONCE and LOSING does not change your overall lacklustre playoff record.
People can argue Sundin doesn’t belong in the hall either, and he has put up comparable NHL points.
Well, it’s a good thing no one considers your “opinion” when it comes to inductees. Otherwise your reasons are self serving and biased.
Based on facts and a history of people who do make the HoF
ALFIE RULES!
So, if he doesn’t win a scoring title…you don’t get in the hall of fame!
He’s not a leader?? Okay then
Never won a cup…that has nothing to do with how good of a player he is.
He has strong work ethic. Great 2-way play. And usually finishes 1st or 2nd in the Senators scoring race.
Don’t worry Leaf fans…Mats will be in the hall of fame too one day!!
Again, not a Leafs fan.
You can’t take one thing and say someone does or does not belong in the hall of fame because of it. It has to be a combination of factors. Not having a scoring title doesn’t mean you won’t make the hall of fame. But when you combine it with everything else on the list, then yes, it hurts his cause a little.
By the way, the last non-actvie player to win the scoring title and not make the hall of fame? Herb Cain. He is actually the only player to win a scoring title and not make the Hall of Fame in NHL history. So winning the scoring title would have helped his chances.
Those who have commented on the guarantee Alfie made, let me ask you this:
What do you think of Sundin’s guarantee that the Leafs would win the Stanley Cup with him? It was a guarantee made to Sun columnist George Gross in mid May 2007, his 3rd year of missing the playoffs, and when he would never play for the Leafs again?
Alfie stood in front of the cameras after the guarantee went unfulfilled and answered questions. Sundin never answered to his critics on that matter.
It doesn’t matter about Sundin’s guarantee. I’m not making a case about whether or not Sundin should be in the hall of fame. This article is about Alfredsson, not Sundin. It has no relevence to this post.
also, Alfie does have a scoring title:
14 goals, 8 points in the 06/07 playoffs to lead all players. Andy McDonald of ANA was 2nd in goals with 10.
So there’s another of your points gone.
That’s a fair point. Of course, Alfie tied with Heatley and Spezza, so accordingly, they should hall of famers too, using that logic.
What a terrible article. Why don’t you write an article on why you think your captain WILL make the HOF? Oh, forgot, you dont have one
I assume you know I’m not a Leafs fan, so I won’t comment on that.
As for the Habs, no, they don’t have a captain. And as much as I loved Koivu (the last captain), I also don’t think he should be in the hall of fame either. But then again, I don’t hear people saying he should be.
I agree that Alfie is at best a fringe hall of famer, but many of your arguments are filled with fallacies and are self-serving. You said Alfredsson has no sportsmanship, yet also stated earlier he was nominated twice for the Lady Byng trophy (for gentleman-like conduct).
Further your reason for undermining his sportsmanship is based on an isolated incident which was done in order to spark his team after lackluster play in a Stanley Cup Finals game. This would refute your argument that he does not show any leadership on the ice because obviously this incident occurred because he was trying to wake up his teammates for the next game.
One last point, I do not remember sportsmanship, leadership, or successful guarantees ever being a necessity or a categorical requirement to make the hall of fame. Many players with non-leader type roles have made the hall of fame as well as players who have agitating qualities. Statistics remain the most prevalent factor in deciding whether a player is deserving of the hall 0f fame; Alfredsson, while maybe not a shoo-in, will certainly be in the discussion when his hall of fame candidacy year comes.
P.S. this is a NY Rangers fan with no loyalties to the Ottawa franchise or to Alfredsson as a player. I actually came across this article because I read about Alfredsson’s guarantee in a Montreal Canadiens message board as they compared him to Pleckanec who made a similar unsuccessful guarantee last night.
Some good points, but I would tend to disagree. The Lady Byng goes to the most gentlemanly player, but that has nothing to do with sportsmanship.
Shooting a puck at an opposition isn’t leadership material. Nailing the guy with a legal hit is, but not slapping a puck at him.
I agree leadership doesn’t necessarily mean you will or will not make it in, but it certainly helps. Scott Stevens is a good example of this. Although he would have made it regardless, his leadership put him over the top and made him a first-ballot hall of famer. Phil Housley, who has way better numbers in way less games, isn’t in the hall of fame yet (Although he never won a Cup, I would argue it’s because of his leadership abilities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Byng_Memorial_Trophy
They specificly mention sportsmanship.
You my friend, are a clueless tool.
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
for what its worth THN named Alfredsson the #2 right winger over the past decade. (iginla was #1)
It would be interesting to see the pts per game of players with more than say 500 or 600 games since the year Alfie came into the league, since he did come in during the heart of the dead puck era.
Ill bet he’s a lot higher on that list than people think.
(copied this part from another dude) Alfredsson has had only 3 seasons where he wasn’t a point-per-game – 1 of which he was a rookie and won the calder and another one where he had severe injury issues. The other one, was the year after his injuries. 11 out of 14 seasons he has played at a ppg pace. (again during the dead puck era)
Also you say he never won a major individual award, with of course the exception of the major individual award he won, (while playing on the worst team in the league)
Also you mention gilmour as “a 5 course meal” while alfie is somewhere between “dinner at a friends house” ie. Yanic Perreault and Gilmour yet Alfie has a better pt per game career average than Gilmour. Alfie came over from Europe late and had he come over 3 or 4 years earlier, we wouldnt be having this conversation. he’d have as many points or more than a guy like Gilmour.
Some good points there. For the record, according to hockey reference, Alfie is the third highest scoring right winger since he came into the league, behind Jagr and Selanne. Good call on that one.
Alfie doesn’t have only three season where he wasn’t a point a game. He wasn’t a point-per-game for his first four years in the league, for example. For his 14 seasons, he’s been a point-per-game guy for eight, and under for six.
Comparing Gilmour to Alfie: Like I said, you need to look at the whole picture. Sure, points per game is better for Alfie. But that’s because Gilmour played until he was too old to lift a stick. But Gilmour has more than 1,400 points. He has 450 goals. He has a Stanley Cup. He was nominated for the Hart trophy. He won the Selke. He also has three seasons where he has more points than Alfie’s highest.
A lot of people try to compare Alfie to Sundin or Gilmour, and then make an argument. Let me put it this way. Would you put Brian Propp into the Hall of Fame? Right now, both he and Alife have had similar careers, and the numbers are identical.
Alfredsson: 1002 games played, 375 goals, 992 points.
Propp: 1016 games played, 425 goals, 1004 points.
They each have a couple of quirky records. Both played in five all-star games. No Cup. Played powerplay, shorthanded, etc etc.
So stepping away from what you think of Alfie, does Propp belong in the Hall of Fame? I would say no. And if Alfredsson is identical to Propp, then #11 doesn’t either.
Again. You are comparing Alffy to a guy that played his career in the 80s. Brian Propp was never in the top 10 in scoring. Alffy was in the top 10 on 3 seperate occasions (despite missing 5-10gms in each of those seasons).
The Alffy and Gilmour comparison much closer to a match for me as they both were MVP type players for their respective teams.
Have you ever seen Alfredsson come through in the clutch?
Hrmm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA_XSlTIjjM;rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1'
Didn’t Joe Corvo score an overtime goal that same series? Does that mean Corvo is just as clutch as Alfie?
I understand you wanting to uphold your argument but you cannot deny how big that goal was or how important it was the the Senators franchise.
Even a Habs fan has to appreciate it.
That was in Game 2.
This goal put them into the Finals.
The fact that Alfie had 14 goals in that playoff, was the NHL’s playoff leading goal scorer, and tied for overall NHL playoff scoring lead, is worth mentioning.
Well, there is also the matter that Alfie should have won the Conn Smyth despite being on the losing side. Im biased but that year he was by far the best player in the playoffs. Id say he was pretty much intrumental in every win. that’s clutch. Scoring the OT against Buffalo to get us in the finals, that’s clutch.
look its impossible to be clutch everytime but Alfie has stepped up huge many many times.
There’s also the Olympic gold medal where he led Sweden, not Forsberg, not Sundin etc.
As for Brian Propp, he played in the highest era of scoring….ever. His career stats are good IMO not really that comparable to Alfie.
and as for Gilmour playing until “he was too old to lift a stick”, and that dragged down his pt per game average, he retired at 39
Alfie turns 38 in December, he doesnt seem too old to lift a stick, in fact he’s probably still Ottawa’s best player, and ill bet hits pt per game this year.
His consistency, toughness, leadership, 2 way play, ability to step up innumerable times, production, Calder trophy, gold medal where he was the leader, Stanley Cup finals as the best player in the playoffs, overall the 3rd highest scoring RW (where most of the high point producers play) behind Selanne and Jagr since he entered the league.
Id say those facts put him in the conversation for the Hall.
If they had won the Cup the year they got there, he’d be in.
Now he’s got a little work to do, but its hardly as if he’s not in the conversation.
Gilmour played 19 seasons
Alfie has played 14 seasons
perfectly said.
brutal article…you don’t mention he is the 4th best scorer from 2000-2009, and a slew of other things that counter your argument.
I just want to point out the reason no one was attacking Bell was due to the fact that he had a cage.
Pingback: Ottawa Senators preview « The Ryan Coke Experience
Ok, you are clearly an Alfie hater.
I do not understand why you would take all this time to put together this article and it only focuses on negative aspects.
Being in the HALL OF FAME is not about how many stanley cups you have won (although this helps), it is about how much you have contributed to the sport, and to the team you are playing with. First of all, name me how many players have played their entire career with one team? Now name me who the longest serving captain in the NHL is? Now name me how many years the SENS missed the playoffs with him as the captain? And you say he is not clutch? Name me how many players have played over 1000 games and have over 1000 points, and are almost 1 point/ game over a 17 year career (leave or take about 20 points or so). ALL THAT BEING SAID, it was with the OTTAWA SENATORS, no, not the DETROIT RED WINGS,AVALANCHE or DEVILS, the Ottawa Senators! a team which has always been good but never been TOP 3 AMAZING. So for a player like Daniel to roll into Ottawa, in 95, 2 seasons after they were officially in the NHL again (93′) with a record 14W-61L-9T and make them a playoff team YEAR after YEAR with hardly any supporting cast, not to mention winning the Calder (rookie of year award) in 94-95 season, I would say that IS PRETTY AMAZING. Not to mention he was selected in the 6th round, 133rd overall….THEN to go on and follow that with a 1000+ game career and 1000+ points ALL with the SENATORS (again good team but nothing SPECTACULAR) I would say that is PRETTY DAMN IMPRESSIVE and if you appreciate hockey, there is not much you can say to all those points. Yes he never won a cup, and yes they never made it as far as they should in the playoffs (its hard with Lalime, and no number one goalie for years!) but he is in the NHL Players Association and he is a huge contributor to the sport of hockey and to the city of Ottawa. So when you put all those points together, someone who was over-looked and under-rated and proved everyone wrong year after year in a market like Ottawa, he is nothing but inspiration and BELIEF to all young hockey players that look up to him, and even rookies in the league. If he can achieve what he has in a career like he has had on a team like Ottawa, then the door is open for anyone to achieve something similar if they want it bad enough and if they are good enough and that is what the sport of hockey needs, and that is what players like Crosby and Ovechkin, and Gretzky have done to the spoty. Yes they are on better teams with a much better supporting cast, and put up a lot more points, but it is what you do for the sport. Alfie is FOR SURE going to make it into the HALL-OF-FAME and for-sure be with the sens organization for many years to come, some senior role, I can see him as head scout for European players, I mean look at how Karlsson is developing and he is still only 19. So to answer to your side of the argument, he does belong in the hall of fame and is probably one of he most valuable individuals to any one franchise in the league. Personally, (I do not think he will with the current roster) I hope he does lift that cup once, boy does he deserve it. So read what I said one more time and ask yourself should he really NOT belong in the hall?
Now don’t crash into a ditch again!
GO ALFIE GO
To answer your questions:
First of all, name me how many players have played their entire career with one team? There are tons of players. On Ottawa alone, you have Jason Spezza, Chris Phillips, Mike Fisher and Chris Neil. In Detroit, there’s guys like Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Holmstrom, etc. But I don’t understand why that would make a difference. Does Mike Modano not playing his whole career in Dallas take away from his accomplishments?
Now name me who the longest serving captain in the NHL is? Currently, it’s Alfredsson.
Now name me how many years the SENS missed the playoffs with him as the captain? Twice in the past three years.
And you say he is not clutch? Yes I do.
Name me how many players have played over 1000 games and have over 1000 points, and are almost 1 point/ game over a 17 year career (leave or take about 20 points or so). There are 71 players with 1,000 games and 1,000 points, and Alfie is right around Brian Propp territory with all his numbers. (Propp, by the way, is not in the hall of fame, but perhaps should be, according to these numbers).
To speed this along, I’m not sure what the rest of your points prove. His draft position means he should make it to the hall of fame? The fact that as such as great leader and captain, that he was never able to make Ottawa a top three team, means he should be in the hall? And what does Alfie possibly getting a European scouting job have to do with Karlsson? Did Alfie draft him?
if doug gilmore deserves it, so does alfie. more points in less games played.
Just for the record I am Sens fan, but there is legend around Gilmour.
I remember stories that he came into the Leafs dressing room and needed an IV drip to play because he’d lost like 10 pounds. Don’t forget Gilmour was around 5’6 or 5;7 and about 150 pounds soaking wet. That’s why a lot of people idolize him, he was a small man that played huge, liek Theo Fleury and them.
As for Alfie, I think he does get in. He would get in just by being meaningful to our city. If you’re going to use the Gilmour comparable, he didn’t get in for a while either…Alfredsson has a few milestones in his favour: 1,000 points, 400 goals, Olympic gold, long-serving captain, Stanley Cup finals appearance.
Will he get in? I’d say it’s likely. But there are a ton of guys that haven’t made it in that were superstars at the NHL and International level (Makarov, Bure, Oates, Hasek but Hasek is still playing). Also, remember someone has to bring him up for voting and the HHOF is in Toronto…
I’m a huge sens fan and I’m not saying Alfie should 100% be in the hall of fame. But he has been a very consistent player in his career, pretty much a point per game player his whole career and definetly needs to be considered to the Hall. You said that Iginla is a shoe in for the Hall, but alfie has very similar stats to Iginla. The only difference being that Alfredsson gets more assists and Iginla gets more goals. They have also both lost in the stanley cup finals and are both very loyal to their team no matter how bad the team may be. One thing that I have to add that I have read from other comments is he did miss out on playing an extra 3-4 seasons in the nhl if he came when he was 19 or 20. The lockout also hurt him drastically since he would have put up another 80-100 points to his current stats. But as it stands he is 39, and this year he is producing at almost a point per game ratio. Not sure if he should be in for sure, but definetly deserves more credit for his great career.
Like I said, I think he’s been a pretty good player, and should get his number retired as soon as he hangs it up. The Sens should already be planning this. But really, his numbers and career is very comparable to Dave Taylor. Numerous seasons with one team. Captain. Lost in Cup finals. No major award. Same amount of goals and points (or close enough) to each other. Neither cracked 50 goals. Each played on a top line that was dreaded by other teams for a couple of years. And obviously, there are differences. Yes, Taylor played in a higher-scoring era, but he never had the chance to play in international hockey like Alfie does now.
As for Iginla, I actually said that Iggy may join the others in the hall, but I don’t know if he will. But he does have some other factors going for him. Hit 50 goals twice. Has 500 goals in his career. Won the Rocket Richard twice. Actually tied for points for the Hart (lost in a tiebreaker). Has an Art Ross. Has a Lester B. Pearson award.
I think this season is going a long way to helping Alfie’s cause. If he had taken another step back like last season, then it would be an easier decision.
It’s kind of hilarious how many times this needs to be pointed out to you, but I’ll try again. When comparing numbers, eras matter. A lot. Way more than you’re making allowances for. For example, would you consider Dino Ciccarelli to be a better player than Maurice Richard? 608 goals versus 544, and nearly identical PPG.
Here’s a graphic illustrating how goals-per-game in the NHL has changed over the years: http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php
Scoring peaked in the 80s at around 8 goals per game, then dropped to around 5.5 in the mid-2000s. That means there were 50% more goals scored in the average game in 1985 than in 2000, so to be fair, you need to adjust the numbers accordingly. Had Taylor played in Alfredsson’s era, he may have registered all of 700 points. Had Alfie played in the mid-80s, he’d be around 1500 by now, with at least three 50-goal seasons, which would put him among the best of all time.
You have to consider too just how relatively easy it is to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame versus other sports’ halls. There are plenty of players in the HHOF with resumes less impressive than Alfredsson’s (Ciccarelli, Gartner, Robitaille). And, how is the Calder not considered a “major award?” I think he’s a lock. See you at the ceremony in 5 years!
There are some good points, but I still don’t think Alfie belongs there.
Let’s compare him to someone more recent to prove my point: Paul Kariya. They have about the same amount of goals (Alfie is four goals ahead right now). Alfie does have about 70 more assists, but also played in 120 or so more games. Kariya has the better points and goals per game. Both successful internationally. Both went to the finals once (and lost). So hopefully we can agree they are pretty even.
Does Kariya belong in the hall of fame? I would say no. He’s a 50-goal scorer. Runner-up for the Hart. Two Lady Byng trophies. But he doesn’t belong there.
Keith Tkachuk? More than 500 goals. About the same points as Alfie. 50-goal scorer twice. No major awards. No Stanley Cup. Same era as Alfie. Hall of famer? I would still say no.
Rod Brind’Amour? Stanley Cup. Went to the finals one other time. Two Selke trophies. No 50 goal season. Career-wise, about 50 more goals and 120 more points than Alfie. Say Alfie plays one more year, and matches Brind’Amour’s toals. If Alfie is in, does Brind’Amour make it?
Those three guys don’t belong in the Hall of Fame. And neither does Alfie.
I think we may be arguing different things, then. Whether or not a player “will” make it is different than whether a player “should” make it. What you’re basically saying is that Alfredsson should not make the Hall of Fame based on a higher bar that you yourself have chosen and think *should* exist. It’s fine to argue that the HHOF is too lenient, and I’d agree with you on that. But that’s a different conversation entirely.
The three players you mentioned will probably all make the HHOF eventually, based on the current standard that has seen the likes of Glenn Anderson, Dino Ciccarelli, Cam Neely (career too short, IMO), Doug Gilmour and Larry Murphy (!) get in. They will have to wait, but I think Alfie is definitely in that second tier of players, along with Tkachuk, Kariya, Lindros (another controversial one I think will also get in), and Sundin behind the first-balloters Jagr, Brodeur, Sakic, Hasek, Forsberg, Lidstrom.
If the HHOF was truly the very best of the best (i.e. you had to be the best player at your position for a sustained period over the course or your career to get in), I’d agree with you that Alfie doesn’t make the cut. But that’s not the standard.
your a fool!!!!!!!!!
you are a muppet and just plain wrong. with alfredsson continuing to do it well into the 2012/2013 season, this article seems premature and incorrect. the man has scored similar to Sundin who got in this year and Iginla who every seems to think is a lock. he guided the Senators to the stanley cup finals ffs. give the man his due!
How does a player with 420 goals and 1,093 points be similar to a guy with 564 goals and 1,349 points? A better comparison would be dave Taylor (431 goals and 1,069 points).
This is the hockey hall of fame. Not the NHL hall of fame. He has a hold medal and led team Sweden. Harley wickenheidier is in HHOF
I realize she is the Sidney Crosby of women’s hockey but this is to just prove the point that Olympics and hockey in Europe have a lot to do with decisions regarding HHOF. Alfie is not a lock but is defiantly in the conversation.
Yes, he has international stats, and the gold medal, which will help him.
(As a side note, Wickenheiser is not the HHOF. There is a woman there, but I can’t recall her name right now, but I understand your point).
I’ve always thought that if it was the Hockey Hall of Fame and not NHL Hall of Fame that there are a lot more international players that should be in there. Hakan Loob being the most notable. Good NHL numbers (50 goal season, Stanley Cup, etc.), but he was so good in the league in his home country they named an award after him.
Just wondering… does Sundin entering the hall change your opinion on this matter? Very similar players, and Sundin was a first-ballot HOFer.
No, it doesn’t. Sundin has 150 more goals than Alfie, and about 250 extra points (Sundin played 17 seasons, Alfie is in his 17th season), which helps a lot.
Well, Sundin HAS played in about 200 more games. But that wasn’t really my point. I just figure that if someone like Sundin can get in on the first ballot, it certainly seems possible for Alfie to make it in eventually. Especially if he remains with the Sens when we begin reaping the rewards from our stockpile of young players in a couple years. If he does win a Cup, I think his chances go from possible to probable.
My guess right now (and it’s just a guess) is that you’ll see guys like Selanne, Alfie, Jagr, Brodeur, etc. play one more year so they can get into the Olympics, and then retire the summer after. If that’s true, then Alfie only has a season and a little bit left.